In today’s episode, I discuss and explore the line between Fantasy and Science Fiction, with author Devon Eriksen. Maybe you’ll agree with our opinions, or maybe not. Weigh in with your thoughts! Devon’s new book, “Theft of Fire,” releases on Saturday, November 11, 2023. You can check out his work at: https://devoneriksen.com/ https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B0CLFRLZ43/
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CONTEST! -Don’t forget “fantasty” – it’s still open, since we haven’t had a chance to really push it. I’ll close it 30 November 2023, and announce a winner in December. $35 gift certificate to the restaurant or retailer of your choice. (I previously said $30, but I couldn’t remember while I was recording if it was $30 or $35, so there you go.) Enter by: send picture and “#fantasty” to fantasty@thorn.link, or – @grendhillchron on social media. Or on Facebook at profile: https://www.facebwook.com/t.s.pedramon
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A full auto-generated transcript follows below:
Don Bishop: welcome to the Grendhill Chronicles podcast. I’m your host, Don Bishop, writing as TS Pedramon. Today is October 27th, 2023 as we record this.
That’s correct. That’s the same date that I recorded my last episode. Our chat with Matthew Kent. Um, [00:06:00] it’s just, yeah, public. Um, sorry. I stutter sometimes pub publishing them on, on different days. Today we are welcoming author Devin Erickson to the podcast. Uh, now do I call you Mr. Erickson?
Devon Eriksen: Thank you. Um, yeah, all of this is always recorded weeks in advance. You know, I, we fix everything in post. I’m actually a talking kangaroo and he’s not wearing any pants and we all just sort of put it together later.
Don Bishop: These faces just
AI deep fakes.
Devon Eriksen: Yeah. It’s, it’s all fake. Nothing you see on camera is real, but regardless, I’m glad to be here.
Don Bishop: I’m glad to have you Now, what can you tell us about yourself a little bit? Um, tell us about your background and, uh,
I don’t know what, what you studied or, or your day job.
Devon Eriksen: how did I come to this?[00:07:00]
Well, how I came to, this is a short story, but a long journey. I’m actually the son of one of the lead programmers on the Voyager spacecraft. So I spent a lot of my childhood hanging around JPL and, uh. You know, going to all of the Voyager press conferences where the, uh, the photographs of the outer planets were coming up live on the screen, and
Don Bishop: What’s the,
what’s the JBL Oh,
Devon Eriksen: Propulsion Laboratory.
Don Bishop: JPL. Okay.
Devon Eriksen: Yes. Yes, yes. Sorry. My, I, I mutilate English on a regular basis. You know, I have no first language, English is my second language. My first language is just grunts, um, But, uh, so I, I got a very sort of close up view of what I thought would be the future. You know, I was imagining [00:08:00] at eight years old, oh, we are going to go out there. And
at the same time I was spending my weekends in the back of a library, uh, you know, with I. Head high piles of science fiction classics, you know, nivan and heinen and that sort of thing. So when I was a teenager, I wanted to be a science fiction writer and a bunch of, uh, older people said, oh honey, that’s not a very good dream. You should go do something
practical. And, you know, I wanted money. So I tried a bunch of different careers and eventually wound up as an engineer for about 20 years. And then when I retired, I said, okay, well now I don’t have to worry about paying the bills. I can do what I want. I’m going to go back [00:09:00] to the first thing I wanted to do when I was a child, and that is tell fantasy and science fiction stories.
So here I am.
Don Bishop: Yeah. And that reminds me, and I, I think I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before, but, uh, I heard a story of Jim Carrey. Uh, Jim
Carey’s father
actually, um, played the saxophone and apparently played it not too shabby,
shabby. Um, but you know. , that’s you, you don’t want to go and, and live in the gutter.
So he became an accountant
Devon Eriksen: uh,
Don Bishop: and, uh, worked for some accounting firm up in Canada. And um, then at, at one point he was, he was laid off or something like that. And, and it wasn’t even his fault, you know, there was, there was some economic downturn and,
or, or maybe his company was
Devon Eriksen: he was
Don Bishop: acquired by another company.
Devon Eriksen: his.[00:10:00]
Don Bishop: And so, so here he was, um, without a job failing at providing for his family at, at something that he didn’t really want to do.
Devon Eriksen: Yeah,
Don Bishop: And so that the takeaway for, for Jim Carrey was, you know, why fail at something you don’t even want to do?
At least try to do what, what you’re, you
dream so.
Devon Eriksen: yeah. You know, sometimes we have to work a little bit to get there, but when you’re doing creative work, you’re always swinging for the fences. And if everyone played its safe, we would have nothing to read, nothing to watch, nothing to listen to, nothing to fire our imaginations. And that’s what I think is so important about science fiction because if we look at pretty much every technological advance for the last. A hundred [00:11:00] years, you can always go and you can find a science fiction writer who anticipated it beforehand. Now,
they don’t always get 100% of the details right.
But always invention is preceded by imagination. You know, now we’re going back to the moon. We’re thinking about colonizing Mars. We’re trying to create artificial general intelligence. And none of this would’ve happened if we hadn’t had this sort of societal conversation in the hypothetical about, wow, we could maybe do these things and they might work, and here’s what they might be like. And gosh, that’s, that’s kind of neat. I, I want that.
Don Bishop: Yeah, some, uh, some weeks ago I watched 2001 A Space [00:12:00] Odyssey, which I had seen before, but I was,
I was a kid when I did, and it’s interesting to go back and, and watch it from this perspective. Um, and, and see what the, see what they got. Right. Or kind of right and see what they got wrong. And it’s,
it’s interesting, like we have video calling.
Um, we do have, um, more space fairing than, than there was before,
but not nearly as, as much as was imagined then. We
don’t have like a stewardess in space with magnetized shoes,
you know? Uh, in fact, I, I’d say that that’s
very different because
society has
Devon Eriksen: yeah.
Don Bishop: I mean, apart
Devon Eriksen: goal,
Don Bishop: shoes just wouldn’t work like that.
Devon Eriksen: the goal is not to get it 100% right, because if I could. Design a fusion engine and an artificial general [00:13:00] intelligence that is, is copied from a human memory. And if I could design neural implants that gave everyone virtual and augmented reality displays in their own heads just to name a few, uh, technologies from my debut novel, it’s sitting on the shelf behind me there. Um, then I wouldn’t be writing science fiction. If I could design all these things in an utterly realistic fashion, I would be, I would be starting several companies and actually making these things. So, you know, when you’re one guy and your tool is your imagination and a keyboard, then you’re not really supposed to get it 100% right.
You’re supposed to make it convincing and you’re supposed to make it compelling so that people’s imaginations go [00:14:00] there and then, you know, maybe you inspire some engineers. I was an engineer for 20 years, so I was, I was definitely inspired by a lot of science fiction in the things that I tried to build, but that’s sort of the, the social role of the science fiction writer
is, is to imagine the possible, and not to finish conversations, but to start them.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And, um, let’s, uh, let’s give you a plug for, for your book. You said
it’s, it’s. Not yet launched
Devon Eriksen: It is launching on November 11th.
Don Bishop: November
Devon Eriksen: on Amazon and Ingram Spark. So it may eventually be in bookstores. Um, it is available for pre-orders right now for eBooks and starting November 11th. You can get print copies [00:15:00] like this lovely hardback right here, or the paperback behind me if you prefer that. Some people like dead trees, some people like eBooks.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Well, um,
and this is, this is timely ’cause I’ll publish this maybe next Thursday the second, or
maybe
Devon Eriksen: good, good,
Yes,
Don Bishop: the following
Thursday the ninth.
Devon Eriksen: yes, And it is this, this is a love letter to every stack of science fiction classics I ever hid in the back of a library.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: You know, uh, with, um, it’s, you know, it’s got some modern touches thrown in there as well. Little, little bit like the expanse, little bit like the Martian, if you enjoyed those titles and you, you want some of the, maybe like the old science fiction classics like Ring World a little bit with some character depth thrown in there and you know,
so I had a lot of fun [00:16:00] writing it.
Don Bishop: Yeah. And so Theft of Fire. What,
um,
Devon Eriksen: a fire.
Don Bishop: theft of fire is this? Uh, and it also says orbital space is this part of
a series.
Devon Eriksen: the first of a series
Don Bishop: Series called Orbital Space.
Devon Eriksen: Yes.
Yes, I am working on the second one box of trouble right now.
Don Bishop: Okay. I will, yeah, we will definitely talk again. And, and we, we mentioned this briefly before we kicked off the episode, um, that I’m also, uh. Pre debut novel, although I’m not as close as as you are. I, I just finished my manuscript last week, so I will be, I will watch with interest, uh, how, how this release goes for you.
Devon Eriksen: Yes, well, we will definitely have to, to talk and try to pass on some of the things that we have learned in this process
because getting from, I have a completed manuscript to, here is my Amazon page upon which you may [00:17:00] order. It is a, is a long journey with a lot of hurdles
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: and the, the traditional publishing industry is no longer what it was. So often you have to figure out these steps for yourself, but that’s both bad and good. It’s, it’s bad ’cause it’s a little more work, but it’s good because it gives you a lot more creative control and allows you to keep a lot more of your hard-earned money so that you can afford to put out the next one.
Also, it puts you in this wonderful position where you’re only responsible to the reader. You
don’t, you don’t have to please. Publishing houses, agents, these kind of things where they all have, you know, nowadays a lot of them have very strong opinions on what people should read rather than on what people want to read. And you know,
being independent allows [00:18:00] you to focus on giving readers something to love and not really caring about industry pundit opinions so much and just, just developing that direct connection with the audience you’re hoping to build.
Don Bishop: yeah, and I, um, so I’m, I’m standing at, um, a precipice. You could say
Devon Eriksen: Mm-Hmm.
Don Bishop: I am. On an internship during my last few months on active duty in the Marines
and this internship, uh, I’m, I’m interning with Full Magazine Publishing. They’re a small,
independent publisher. They, they focus on, uh, graphic novels, but they’ve allowed me time to work on my manuscript so I could, I could get my book written and, and, uh, pursue everything within the nexus of, of the business, including podcasting like I’m doing right now.
So come, uh, come December 1st, [00:19:00] I’m going to be without income and, you know, I have, I have some savings and I’m,
I’m
Devon Eriksen: Burn the
Don Bishop: up, build up a new career,
Devon Eriksen: Burn the ships.
Don Bishop: so what I was
saying, uh,
Devon Eriksen: ships. No retreats.
Don Bishop: I was talking to somebody about this yesterday, how like at work I am responsible to somebody else. He gives me a task, and I am to see that task completed to his specification,
which he may or may not clearly communicate to me.
Devon Eriksen: Yes.
Don Bishop: And so while I’m doing the task, I’m constantly guessing in my mind, trying to, trying to guess what he’s gonna want, what his
vision is, without there being time
to find out like, do you mean this? Do you mean that there’s
just not time
Devon Eriksen: yeah.
Don Bishop: and worrying that I’m gonna come back, having done it not to his liking,
and be judged for that.
Now, with, on the, um, [00:20:00] contrast that with working on a computer or a car and it works or it doesn’t, there’s no opinion, there’s no judging. And if it doesn’t work, it’s because you miss some detail and nobody’s upset about that and it’s just, it works
or it doesn’t.
Devon Eriksen: frequently they are because they, they spend a great deal of money to make sure this engineering project worked.
And quite frequently there is some ambiguity there because the definition of work. To perform the desired task, which means that somebody somewhere in English has to be describing what the system you’re building is supposed to do.
Don Bishop: Yeah. But if, if I’m trying to moment, the moment my, my son is here,
we speak Spanish. Um, if, if I’m working for myself to get the car to, to operate the way I want it to,
Devon Eriksen: Yes.
Don Bishop: I decide if it’s good enough
for me. Now,
Devon Eriksen: yes.
Don Bishop: publishing books is [00:21:00] kind of a mix because
Devon Eriksen: Yeah.
Don Bishop: I need to publish a story that works for a lot of people,
Devon Eriksen: Uhhuh.
Don Bishop: but I can view that, that, broad readership as a matter of fact thing.
And it’s not up to your opinion or your opinion. Like if I have a hundred people that loved the story,
I don’t care if I, if I have 30 people that don’t.
Devon Eriksen: find their audience. You’re, you’re trying to write for thousands and thousands of people, but you don’t necessarily know which those thousands and thousands of people are. So often you’re writing for yourself and feeling like, okay, maybe there’s enough people out there who enjoy the things that I do,
but there’s still some ways in which you’re beholden to the reader, and
one of those is that regardless of who they are and how that audience works, you have to treat them with [00:22:00] respect, which is one of my sort of hesitations about the traditional publishing industry in this part of the 21st century is that I. You know, a lot of people working at these sort of Big Five publishing houses have very strong opinions about what people should read, what they should be exposed to, and they’re more sort of predisposed to, to talk and to articulate what they think people should, should hear and should read. And they’re not quite as disposed to listen.
They see readers as the sort of passive receptacle of whatever message they want to put into a story. And I don’t think you can write very well if [00:23:00] you see readers that way. I think you have to view them as intelligent people who have tastes
Don Bishop: Uhhuh.
Devon Eriksen: and you want to give them something too. Love. I.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Excuse me. I’m gonna blow up a. Punching balloon for my son while we, while we talk. But is that why you went, why you
decided to publish independently rather?
Did you look for a publisher or you
immediately,
Devon Eriksen: I think it sort of went in reverse, um, in, in reverse of that statement where I wrote what I wanted to write, what I felt was a good story in isolation without really looking at what was fashionable in the publishing industry or, or what’s hot these days. Because the publishing industry tends to always chase the last thing. You know, they [00:24:00] told Brandon Sanderson to, can you make it darker? Because he was trying to break in when George Martin was selling very well.
Don Bishop: uh.
Devon Eriksen: And, you know, goodness knows what they would’ve told Tolkien. You know, imagine that it’s 1932 and you are trying to pitch Lord of the Rings in terms of the literature that existed in 1932.
Don Bishop: Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: You know, how do you, how do you even phrase that? So readership often craves the new, but that
which is new is, is by definition difficult to describe. So I wrote something the way the story needed to be written, the way the story cried out to be written, and I found out, okay, you know, the traditional publishing industry is now very [00:25:00] focused on message fiction and some of the alternative industry is, is playing it a little safe. You know, there’s a lot of this sort of third person military science fiction with space Marines shooting aliens and this kind of thing, which can be an awful lot of fun, but it wasn’t what I was doing.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: And so I had some very cordial conversations with a lot of people. And the general idea was, this is, this is, this is not something we’re used to.
This is a little risky for us. And at the same time, I was feeling like I had seized some of my independence by going, I’m not gonna work for someone. I’m gonna write it. I’m gonna write books. And I’m like, I want to seize more of that independence by publishing this myself and having full control of the process so [00:26:00] that I’m going to be beholden to no one but my readers.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: And that really, when I figured that out, I really, you know, I really just came alive with enthusiasm because it’s like I have an audience and the only thing that matters is making them smile and applaud. I don’t need to ask anyone’s permission to be to create, I don’t have to wait for someone say, you can create do.
So I’m going to say I can create and I will do so whether you wish it or not.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: you know, the only people who matter are the people who are picking up the story, you know?
And if they’re not putting it down, and if they’re happy at the end and they want another one, then that’s success. [00:27:00] I don’t need or want a Hugo Award or a Nebula Award or anything like that. I want people to say, wow, I enjoyed that. That’s, that’s my award. That’s the award I want.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I think the, um, the, the challenge that that could face
is
Devon Eriksen: Yeah.
Don Bishop: people not being used to it, and they don’t know what kind of thing this, this new thing is.
And,
Devon Eriksen: Yeah. And
that goes into how you, how you present the book, how you frame the book, how you describe the book. Because your goal, for example, when you have cover art, and this is some of the work of, uh. French woman named Thea McGrand, who is, who is just brilliant. Um, part of the role of things like cover art and your back cover text, and you know, how you describe it, how you [00:28:00] publicize it is not so much to make people say, oh, I want to buy this book, because that’s their decision. That’s not your decision. You have no control over that. What the goal is, is to describe the experience that they are going to have so that they can decide for themselves. Oh, the way this Devon Erickson guy writes sounds like something that I would enjoy because it’s got these things that I’m into, or no, I’m not into that.
I prefer Agatha Christie, locked room mysteries. You know, you don’t want to trick people. Who aren’t your audience
into picking up your book.
’cause they’re gonna write one star reviews and they’re not going to enjoy that. You’ve wasted their time, you’ve defrauded them. [00:29:00] So, you know, I’m looking for the people who are into this kind of thing.
Don Bishop: Yeah. I saw, I saw, um. I saw something recently said there are two kinds of negative reviews
Devon Eriksen: Uh
Don Bishop: and one is, is your, from your true
audience
Devon Eriksen: uh
Don Bishop: giving feedback
Devon Eriksen: Yeah,
Don Bishop: that.
I wish I could remember it
Devon Eriksen: No, this is very
Don Bishop: like,
Devon Eriksen: to
something, sorry,
Don Bishop: good, but you know, this aspect of the story
just, I felt let down by this or whatever, and
that’s like, that’s like actual
feedback to your book.
The other negative
Devon Eriksen: saying. I get
what you’re saying.
Don Bishop: is
Devon Eriksen: I say often.
Don Bishop: shouldn’t have been your customer in the first place.
Devon Eriksen: Yeah. Yeah. What I say very often is I, is, I put it like this, there’s two kinds of bad reviews. There’s, you overcook the fish and there’s, I hate fish.[00:30:00]
Don Bishop: Uhhuh,
Devon Eriksen: the first one is a failure of your writing. The second one is a failure of your marketing because you didn’t make people understand that if they hate fish, they shouldn’t order this because it’s salmon.
Don Bishop: Uh huh. Yeah.
Devon Eriksen: So you, you know, the both are useful feedback, but you have to understand. Which one you’re getting. Are you getting it on your, your targeting or are you getting it on your writing? And you know, there’s always going to be some people who pick things up for inexplicable reasons, and then they’ll say, oh, you know, you protagonist swears like a sailor possibly.
That’s because he is a sailor
of sorts, .And they’re in tense situations and they don’t always say, oh [00:31:00] gosh, darn it all to heck But, you know, you, you try to make clear what it is that you’re doing. So that’s, that’s all part of the process because a book is never really alive until, uh, you know, somebody reads it and experiences it.
That’s the whole intention.
Don Bishop: Yeah.
Devon Eriksen: So you, I’m sorry, you, uh. You, uh, prefaced this interview in the emails we were sending back and forth with a very interesting question,
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: and that was something about the, uh, the difference between fantasy and science fiction
Don Bishop: Yeah. And that, uh, for our listeners, that was the I was, I was about to when I said, so just now. I was,
I was gonna bring that up. Um. Because this is a really interesting conversation. Uh, and I was actually, I was in my head, [00:32:00] I was wondering if we should just continue and let the conversation flow naturally
Devon Eriksen: No, no. I was very
eager to talk about that.
Don Bishop: the, um, well, I mean, we could make that its own episode.
We could, but No, let’s, let’s jump into it. So the, the nominal, um, topic of the interview that be before we jumped into it was going to be, um, the difference between science fiction and fantasy. And I, I think we probably see it kind of the same way,
Devon Eriksen: Uh,
possibly, possibly. Grit minds think alike.
Don Bishop: rich minds think independently and that
often coincides.
Devon Eriksen: yes, yes. Well, there’s a reason why people often compare and contrast fantasy and science fiction. You know, you’ll see bookshelves in bookstores labeled fantasy and science fiction. [00:33:00] You don’t, you don’t see like fantasy and Agatha Christie, you know, nobody’s shelving. Tolkien next to Danielle Steele.
So, clearly fantasy and science fiction have something in common. And I’m gonna lead this off with a bit of a controversial statement. And then I’m gonna back it up a little bit so it makes sense.
Don Bishop: Okay.
Devon Eriksen: fiction is
fantasy.
Don Bishop: I mean, where’s the lie? It
is.
Devon Eriksen: here’s how, here’s how I define fantasy. Fantasy is any story that takes place in a hypothetical setting, which is different enough from the reader’s daily experience that the author has to explain it to them. So you’ve got this [00:34:00] hypothetical counterfactual world that you’re putting your story in, and whether it’s fantasy or science fiction, really kind of just depends on where are you getting. The, the sort of the thematic underpinning for your hypothetical universe. But that’s the reason that these get shelved together and why their fandoms overlap to the point where the Venn diagram is almost a circle.
Don Bishop: uh.
Devon Eriksen: because there’s a particular kind of reader. And, you know, personally, I think this is because they have active imaginations and they’re very smart and, you know, they’re, they’re just, they’re just better readers in my totally unbiased opinion, um, where, where they like to imagine these alternative universes and to do that [00:35:00] rewarding mental work of figuring out as they go along. So
Don Bishop: And I would,
Devon Eriksen: I’m writing science fiction, but I consider that to be a subset of fantasy.
Don Bishop: yeah, and I would say the, um, I, I would use your definition of fantasy,
or I would, I mean, in my words to put in my words fantasy is, um, uh, a setting or, or a story with, with major . Elements or any elements honestly, that differ from our reality. Um, and science fiction falls under that umbrella. Like, think about, um, Dr.
Who, the tus
this time traveling spaceship. Like how does it time travel? Uh, we have no,
Devon Eriksen: Who caress?
Don Bishop: we can’t time travel. It
just [00:36:00] handwaving.
It works, it time
travels. And so the, um, the, it, it’s, it’s magic. It’s a
magic element added to the story so that we
can explore
Devon Eriksen: and
that’s a, that’s a lovely writer’s trick there that they used because it allowed them to create a series with consistent characters, but an ever-changing setting
Don Bishop: Uh, yeah.
Devon Eriksen: you could go anywhere and you could experience anything. And if you want to create an episodic TV show, which still has an element of growth, which still has character arcs, you can do this.
And whatever you want to do with your character arcs, you can pick out a setting for the next three episodes or whatever that’s going to play to that. So the doctor who was a was a very cleverly designed [00:37:00] show and you know, if you watch some of the older ones now, they’re maybe a little bit dated because they didn’t have much of a budget.
I, the D are pretty silly, but it, they had a terrific amount of just imagination and writing skill to come up with some of this stuff.
Don Bishop: so I would say to try to define . Science fiction, it’s fantasy where the fantastical elements are largely, uh, technologically explained
Devon Eriksen: They come from
Don Bishop: in the context of technology
Devon Eriksen: know, personally I think that, uh, I
Don Bishop: or science,
Devon Eriksen: have
been called engineering fiction. Rather than science fiction because
Don Bishop: well,
Devon Eriksen: maybe, maybe I’m a little bit tired of engineers doing all the work and scientists getting all the credit.
Don Bishop: now. What about, um, [00:38:00] what about this? I saw this movie on Netflix and, um, there, there, I also recently saw, uh, Kong versus Godzilla. Is it Godzilla versus Kong? Uh, and it’s one of those things where you, you have to turn off large parts of your brain and, and then
Devon Eriksen: Well, you have to accept the basic premise of the story. And there there’s some litmus tests for quality here.
Don Bishop: So that, that’s not the movie
that I wanted to, to mention. Uh, it was, um, a romance.
Devon Eriksen: A romance.
Don Bishop: Is it called Upside Down? I think
Devon Eriksen: Upside down. I’m not sure I’m
Don Bishop: 2012. Yeah, it’s upside down.
So it’s, uh, it’s, uh, well, IMDB calls it a fantasy romance,
Devon Eriksen: Okay.
Don Bishop: but the, um, [00:39:00] the fantastical element is gravity and so
it, it feels more like a,
Devon Eriksen: oh, yes. I’ve
seen some of the marketing for this.
It’s it’s sort of a Japanese animation. Yes.
Don Bishop: No,
no. So it, it stars
Devon Eriksen: of something
Don Bishop: Kristen Dunst.
Devon Eriksen: Okay.
Don Bishop: Um. And I don’t remember his name,
but, um, there, there are two worlds.
They, they rotate the same star, whatever, but they’re, they’re sitting in space right next to each other.
Um, but they have like two flavors of gravity. And one world has its own gravity.
The other world has its own gravity,
and neither one affects
the other at all.
Devon Eriksen: physical consequences of this would be
Don Bishop: Like,
Devon Eriksen: far reaching,
Don Bishop: it’s, it’s crazy to, to
think about and try to start constructing what that,
what all those implications are. Um, [00:40:00] but then you have to realize that they breeze over some things,
Devon Eriksen: yeah.
Yeah.
Well, like I said, I’m not actually inventing fusion drives or general artificial intelligence, so I’m breezing over a few things too. there’s there’s really kind of two elements to this. First of all, how easy is it to accept your premises and that. That is, you know, partly not having ridiculous premises, but also how you present those.
And then the second one, which is vastly more important because this is where a lot of stories that fail, really fail and fail hard, is once you’ve accepted this stories list of gimmies, like, okay, we have working fusion technology, or you know, [00:41:00] oh, you know, you have SP sprites from another universe that turn into swords or whatever it is that you have going on, or two flavors of gravity once, once the reader or the viewer has accepted those things, does the rest of the story follow from those things in a logical manner? You know, and oftentimes you will get people who, who are writers or directors or producers who don’t really understand this,
and you know, they will, they will react to criticism, oh, you know, that that season of this show didn’t work for me. And they’ll say, well, you’re just, it has dragons in it. Well, okay, I was, I was unaware that I could [00:42:00] just abandon all the rules of plot logic by putting a dragon in. I mean, you know, if that’s a cheat code, I’m gonna put dragons in every book.
You know, nobody could criticize my massive plot holes for anything
It’s like, it’s, it’s the, the, the element of fantasy is that you have dragons. Once you accept that you have dragons and you’ve been told some things about how dragons work and what they do, you have to be consistent with that, and you have to have people react realistically to that, and you have to have things that would happen if you have dragons happen.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Um, and I think it’s interesting how, how sometimes it’s like viewing science fiction as a subset of fantasy.
You might, you might wonder, well, what about [00:43:00] hard science fiction?
Devon Eriksen: Oh, sure.
Don Bishop: what is hard science fiction?
Devon Eriksen: you know, I have spreadsheets. You know, I got help from…a mathematician. I. To, you know,
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: all this out. You know, I had to do relativistic calculations. I had to, you know, do rough designs for spacecraft weapons that would actually work,
Don Bishop: So are you
Devon Eriksen: so,
Don Bishop: have you been writing this book for, for a long time?
Devon Eriksen: yeah, yeah.
It, it took me nine months to produce my first manuscript, but, uh, you know, so the harder you derive the, the more you derive it from projecting current engineering trends, the more you are hard science fiction. But again, even in hard science fiction, there are some GIMs because you can’t actually design the technology. It’s just about [00:44:00] making it believable. And when you make it believable and when you treat the reader’s intelligence with respect, then of course you can get away with a few things. I mean the basic premise of one of the greatest modern hard science fiction stories, Andy Weir’s The Martian, which if you haven’t read the book, read the book, it’s wonderful.
Don Bishop: I haven’t seen the movie either.
Devon Eriksen: Uh, well see the movie. It is wonderful. It then read the book. It is wonderful too. Um, but you know, the, the premise involves an accident caused by a Martian dust storm and the atmosphere of Mars is actually about 1% the density of ours. So,
you know, 70 or, you know, 90 or 120 mile an hour winds on Mars would just be a gentle shove
you know, they wouldn’t really do anything to [00:45:00] you. So, but you know, the rest of the book is just so wonderful in all of its science that we’re like, okay, we don’t care. We’ll give you that one. We’ll give you that one because every author, you know, there’s always, okay, you gotta gimme this. So I can tell the story, but I’m not gonna ask for too much. And I’m gonna ask for it in a manner where it, it makes sense and it flows.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: you know, that’s maybe the dis, maybe the distinction between hard and soft science fiction is just how much you’re asking for
Don Bishop: Uhhuh,
Devon Eriksen: and how you ask for it. Because all of this is a little bit vague. Genre is not a thing for writers. Genre is for readers Genre exists to describe what the story is like so people know how to pick up what they like. You know, when [00:46:00] you’re writing, you don’t think, oh, you know, this is going to be a, you know, a hard science fiction novel. Or a soft space opera, science fiction novel with fantasy elements like laser swords and telekinetic powers, or this is going to be a werewolf romance. You don’t, you don’t categorize yourself like that.
You just write a story
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: you know, when it hits the bookstore, somebody’s gotta shelve it somewhere.
And that’s what genre is for.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Um, I was gonna say that, um. Yeah, I mean, it’s a question of, of how far you want to speculate
and there’s, there’s that umbrella term of speculative fiction, uh, that people
use to
describe both fantasy and science fiction.
Um, and it’s like, do we wanna speculate? [00:47:00] Okay, let’s say we have dragons in this world,
or do we just wanna say that?
Let’s pretend that we, that AI gets to the point and robotics get to the point, gets to the point where we have believable androids,
Devon Eriksen: Yeah, yeah,
Don Bishop: which, you know, hypothetically could totally happen.
Devon Eriksen: yeah,
Don Bishop: Um, we’re just not there yet.
Devon Eriksen: yeah,
Don Bishop: So
Devon Eriksen: yeah.
Don Bishop: actually, I, I have a,
Devon Eriksen: Uhhuh
Don Bishop: I have a, a short story, uh, involving, not, not, not believable human looking, but, but in self-aware robots, you know.
But it’s set in, in like 10 years from now, um, maybe 15 years from now. And the, the only deviation from our world, um, as far as what’s realistic, [00:48:00] uh, is that we achieved these, um, self-aware robots, and then they overthrew us. You know, but
that’s,
Devon Eriksen: Yes. Yes. Artificial intelligence plots tend to follow one of two patterns. Yeah. These are, these are very popular tropes. And they’re popular tropes because people like them
and they’re either the Terminator and they want to wipe out their creators or their Pinocchio, and they want to be a real boy.
Don Bishop: or the, um.
Devon Eriksen: yeah. Those are the
Don Bishop: Or the Matrix, and they want to enslave their creators
Devon Eriksen: Variation on
Don Bishop: variation of the first.
Devon Eriksen: variation on the Terminator.
And one of the things I set out to do when I created an AI character was that I didn’t [00:49:00] want to do either one. I mean, I don’t, I don’t think these two plots are played out. You know, I don’t think they’ll ever be played out.
There’s always new variations. As Brandon Sanderson said, nothing done well is a cliche, but I wanted to try something different. So I created an AI character who, you know, her, her conflict is a little different. She doesn’t want to be a human being, and she doesn’t want to destroy them. She’s just trying to figure out her place in the universe.
You know, what am I, what am I supposed to do? You know, what is it like being this, this, unique and novel thing that, you know, you can, you can count the number of them in existence on the fingers of one hand.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: So, and I felt there was a lot of unexplored territory in there in the sense of. [00:50:00] You know, when we create characters, it’s like, okay, what is it like to be this person? Well, what is it like to be this person who’s not a human being, but is made by human beings to act like them? You know, we spend, you know, decades of all sorts of obstru philosophy, wondering there is or isn’t a creator God, then what we should or shouldn’t do about that. And the, the position that the AI is in is a very different one because, you know, she’s standing right there
Don Bishop: Yeah,
Devon Eriksen: like you can have a conversation with her
Don Bishop: well.
Devon Eriksen: not always a very nice person.
Don Bishop: It, and I would say it’s not, not just the, um, the very [00:51:00] obvious presence of the, the creator human,
but the, the fact that the, the AI character is living in the creator’s world,
Devon Eriksen: yes,
Don Bishop: um, whereas
the, the, the prevalent thought in society today is that if there is a God, he’s up in heaven
and doesn’t like we’re living on this earth,
not in his heaven.
Devon Eriksen: Yes, yes, The creator’s environment is designed around the creator, not the created in particular.
And that’s, that leads to all sorts of very interesting existential questions for an AI character, you know, especially one as, as I wrote her, I. Where you, you sort of get artificial general intelligence by kind of, you know, [00:52:00] cribbing off evolutions notes and
copying human memories.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: you’ve got an artificial intelligence that never actually was a human, but it remembers being
one.
Don Bishop: Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: So there’s a conflict between your memories and what you know to be true.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Yeah. That’s intriguing.
Devon Eriksen: Yeah, I just, I threw in a lot of just little sort of what ifs
Don Bishop: So,
um.
Devon Eriksen: you know, you just kind of shake ’em in a bag and eventually a story comes out.
Don Bishop: Yeah. Um, I, I feel like we’re probably winding down, but I do want to ask if you can give us a, a, a quick, um, what’s the word? Um, not summary, but um, starts with an SS[00:53:00]
Devon Eriksen: Synopsis.
Don Bishop: synopsis. Can, can you give us a synopsis of theft of fire?
Devon Eriksen: Ah, well, the whole Orbital Space series, uh, starts very small and gets very large. It starts with a petty criminal being blackmailed, and it ends up in the technological singularity and the fate of the galaxy So starts out with this, this guy, he is kind of broke. He’s turned to petty crime to make the payments on his spacecraft.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: And somebody comes along and turns his life upside down, he blackmails him and she’s, she’s got plans for what she needs him to help her do and he doesn’t want to he’s got plans of his own. And as it turns out, they, they both end up finding out that a plan is a list of things that don’t happen.
Don Bishop: A list of things that, what?
That
Devon Eriksen: A list of things that don’t [00:54:00] happen. you know,
no plans survives, contact with the enemy. So it’s, it’s, and it starts out as this little adventure story said in this future society that’s colonized the solar system, you know, it, a lot of beta readers said it reminded of them, them of the expanse or the martian,
and then the stakes kind of escalate from there because what, what this mysterious blackmailer is trying to do actually ends up being pretty important. So he has to figure out how he feels about that. It’s very driven by a lot of the conflicts and how these characters eventually resolve their differences.
Don Bishop: Okay. Well, yeah, it sounds really interesting. And, um, I guess for, for my sense, can you tell me the word count? Just like a sense of how [00:55:00] long it is,
Devon Eriksen: Well,
a hundred,
Don Bishop: count for our
Devon Eriksen: 150,000 words,
which in hardback ends up being the new version is 4 99, uh, somewhere around,
Don Bishop: Three, four oh oh
Devon Eriksen: uh, 450
pages or so.
Yeah.
Yeah. So it’s a, it’s, it’s a pretty long read, which from the perspective of some people is a good thing. I mean, I’m, I’m not targeting people who, who don’t like to read.
Don Bishop: Well, and in the days
of, uh, in the days of Audible, people look for long books
specifically, and that’s how I first got into Sanderson. Uh, I had a long commute, so I had
Audible and I
didn’t want to run out of a 10 hour book and then have another month
before I could listen to Audible again.
Devon Eriksen: Yeah. I’m not quite up to writing Sanderson length stuff yet, but, uh, I, [00:56:00] I don’t cut things to the bone.
I cut them as much as they need to be cut and no more. It should be t it shouldn’t be thread bear.
Don Bishop: Uh, they say that, um, you know, there’s, there’s advice and I would say it’s not bad advice. That, um, if something isn’t serving to push your, your, your plot forward,
then you should cut it. But then you have to ask, what does that mean? Like, you’re not gonna have all action in all, every scene
throughout the entire book.
You have to have character development.
Devon Eriksen: yeah.
Well, I would.
Don Bishop: what kind of person this character is, and, and he’s gotta go and do something that has nothing to do with the plot, but you need to get to know him so you understand
his actions in the
Devon Eriksen: I would replace, push the plot with spark joy. If it does not spark joy in the reader, throw it away. [00:57:00] You
know, it’s, it’s that simple, you know, it, it’s, every, every word is there so that someone can enjoy reading it. So, you know, when you write your first manuscript, you know, you end up using a little bit of verbiage and you come up with some ideas that maybe, you know, you thought they were going somewhere at the time and, and they didn’t quite work with the rest of the stuff.
So you, you cut that out. But when you’re wielding that knife, you always have this idea that I’m going to cut something out when it doesn’t help the story be a better story that they, that people can enjoy.
If it’s enjoyable, then leave it in.
Don Bishop: It’s like Tom
Devon Eriksen: for the readers to like,
Don Bishop: Tom Bombadil was cut from the movies. [00:58:00] From Peter Jackson’s Lord
the Rings trilogy, and the story was there and it worked
just fine. Um, and it’s been a long time since I read
the Fellowship of the Ring, so I, I don’t remember a lot,
uh, Tom Bombadil. But going off of what other people say, it’s a good addition to the story.
It’s, it, it belongs in that world and it’s part of the Hobbits experience on their way to Dale.
Devon Eriksen: Well, it’s, it’s all about whether the readers enjoy it or not.
You know, it’s, and I don’t necessarily think the Tolkien. Has the, uh, has the deciding opinion there. You know, ultimately stories are bar by writers, but they’re for
readers and, you know, maybe Tolkien who lived in a very different era and was a very different sort of person than a lot of his readers. [00:59:00] You know, maybe he had some ideas about his mythology that he wanted to throw in there, where the readers were more interested in a more tightly focused story. So, you know, personally, if I have been, if I had been his developmental editor, I would have advised him to cut it. But there are some people who love it.
So,
you know, maybe, maybe that’s wrong. I don’t know. We all
enjoy different things about a story.
Don Bishop: I like that you point out that, um, it’s not really, even the author’s
Devon Eriksen: Yeah,
Don Bishop: say whether it it necessarily has value there or
not. I mean, it’s, it’s his say, it was his
say, whether was there or not.
Devon Eriksen: yeah. Oh, yeah.
Don Bishop: coming from a, a,
musician standpoint. When I was in college and, you know, going to my, one of my first music [01:00:00] education classes, and they’re like, what is music?
And I’m like, well, everyone knows what music is, right? But
you think about It
and as you think about it and, and try to form
a definition that, that matches everything that you yourself
consider to be music.
And you, you can, you really try to be frank and honest with your definition that you find the definition expanding.
And it, it comes down to, um, sound, which occurs in time, often utilizing pitch and timur as, uh, as aspects
Devon Eriksen: Yeah. But you know,
you can fiddle around with these definitions
Don Bishop: But then like, is Bird song music is the sound
of a, a babbling brook music?
Devon Eriksen: yeah. Well, you
know, that’s, that’s like asking whether submarines can swim,[01:01:00]
Don Bishop: Yeah. So like is, is bird
song music
Devon Eriksen: it’s just how
Don Bishop: who is singing? Maybe not. Maybe the bird’s just saying, Hey, I’m hungry. You wanna go get some seeds over there? Maybe it’s not music to them,
but I listen to it and it makes me feel happy.
It’s music to me.
Devon Eriksen: yeah. You’re gonna, you’re going to treat it like that. And, you know, ultimately these, these stories, the goal is how the reader is going to treat them and enjoy them as an author. You are the God of your universe. You can do anything you want, but the readers are guests in your universe and you’re not the God of them.
Don Bishop: Mm-Hmm.
Devon Eriksen: You can’t force them to enjoy something. You have to have an idea of what they already enjoy and and cater to that.
Don Bishop: Yeah.
Devon Eriksen: So, you know the question of, of something like Bombadil where some people say, oh, you know, you should have left that [01:02:00] in because the author put it in, or No, you should cut it because you know, people don’t really enjoy it and it disrupts the flow of the story. You know, both of those are valid opinions, but ultimately the criteria that we judge stories by is, is whether or not we had a good time reading it.
Don Bishop: Yeah,
Devon Eriksen: And if you don’t have a good time reading it, then what’s the point?
Don Bishop: yeah. All right. Well, um, I think we’ll, we’ll cut it off for there for today. Um. If you could stick around for a minute after
you close out. Uh, now I would like to, oh, where can listeners find you on the web? I, I mentioned that early on. Where can they find you?
Devon Eriksen: Ah, I have a website, deon erickson.com. That’s D-E-V-O-N-E-R-I-K-S-E-N, and that includes a preview of the first [01:03:00] three chapters of theft of fire, links to social media and various pieces of short writing. Um, Amazon page where they can pre-order the book if so inclined. And actually when this goes out, it should be live for actual orders, if you like, dead trees. Um, so yeah, the, the website is definitely the hub to find all the other different places that I can be read on the web.
Don Bishop: Okay. And looking at your website, uh, it looks like you will be at Chatter Con
in January.
Devon Eriksen: yes, yes.
Don Bishop: Confinement, Lebanon
Devon Eriksen: Aha. I,
I, yes, I think so. Uh, yes. I, I, I make
a number of con appearances
and I’m afraid I can’t keep those all straight in my
Don Bishop: So, so for the
Devon Eriksen: the if it’s on the schedule, I’ll be
Don Bishop: Yep. It’s on, uh, it’s on your page under
events.
Devon Eriksen: Yep.
Don Bishop: So, and yeah, these are not terribly far. Uh, ’cause you’re, you’re in Georgia or [01:04:00] Alabama?
Devon Eriksen: I am in Tennessee,
Don Bishop: Tennessee. Okay.
Devon Eriksen: I sort of, I sort
of travel all
Don Bishop: morning’s guest was in, was in Georgia. So
Tennessee, I’m in Virginia,
so, um, I don’t know, maybe I’ll see you at, uh, Chattan in January.
Devon Eriksen: well, I
certainly hope so.
Don Bishop: are you going to 20 books?
Devon Eriksen: I’m sorry,
Don Bishop: Are, uh, are you going to 20 books? Vegas you’re not, not
familiar with?
Devon Eriksen: actually don’t know. I have to confess that
I’m not 100% in charge of my own schedule
Don Bishop: Okay. Um, if you’re not aware, so
it’s, it’s a writer’s conference. It’s not, it’s not a Comic-Con, it’s not really for the, the readers. There is a,
Devon Eriksen: Okay. Well,
I will,
Don Bishop: event on the last
Devon Eriksen: have my staff check it out.
Don Bishop: It’s very soon.
Devon Eriksen: That sounds
very ous.
Don Bishop: week after next. So, um, yeah, there’s a, there’s a Facebook group called 20 Books to 50 K.
Um, [01:05:00] and that’s, the name comes from the notion that you’re probably not gonna make a living off of one published book. You know, uh, one of the founders had looked at his, his Kindle royalties one day and it was
$7. And he is like, well,
he did some math, and he is like, if I had 20 of these, I’d be making 50,000 a year.
So, um, but that conference, they, they have a conference every year. Actually, this year is the last . 20 books conference. Uh, they are handing the reins over, uh, just ’cause they have some people retiring from the, from managing the conference.
Devon Eriksen: Mm-Hmm.
Don Bishop: Uh, so there will be a new conference built, uh, similar, very similar and, and all, like, all the vendors are being handed over, um, for next year.
But yeah, 20 books to 50 K is the Facebook group where you could look
into it if you
Devon Eriksen: I will, I will,
have my my people have a look at it
Don Bishop: conferences in Vegas, November 6th through 10th.
Devon Eriksen: Uh,
yes,
Don Bishop: [01:06:00] So anyway, so maybe I won’t see you there, but maybe I’ll see you at the
Chatan,
Devon Eriksen: Uhhuh.
Yeah. Or if you go to Liberty Con, that’s another good one.
Don Bishop: Liberty Con.
Devon Eriksen: Tennessee in this, right? Yes. Tickets
sell out very rapidly, so if you want to go,
Don Bishop: Utah in June.
Devon Eriksen: uh, yes.
Don Bishop: Okay. All right. Um, so. For our listeners and now like I promise, we, we really are closing out. Um, don’t forget our fan tasty contest. Uh, so, you know, that came from a slip of the tongue and we ran with it. Uh, fan Tasty. So take a picture of food that you cooked in your kitchen or that you grew in your garden and send it to, uh, send it to us via email or via social media.
Um, you can send it to Fantasty at Thorn link or you can find me on social media at Grand Hill Cron on, uh, on uh, Instagram, or you can tweet it [01:07:00] at me. Um, my name is Tss Riman or Don Bishop writes as ts riman on Twitter and there will be a $35 gift certificate to the restaurant or, or retailer of your choice.
That we will award in December. We’ll close the contest on at the end of November. Uh, so yeah, enter our Fantasty contest and we will see you next time on the Grendhill Chronicles podcast.